I agree we should help them but I also think that they need wage reductions across the board. I also think the states and gov need to get out of the way with all the regulations on saftey and let them build cheep tiny cars. If I could drive one of those little 3 cylinder trucks on the hiway I'd try and buy one. What the hay it's safer than a motorcycle It's just stupid law.

Right now they need to be building chevettes and escorts.

The Big 3 doesn't make appealing cars to me. Looks mean a lot. In the
muscle car days every Big 3 car stood out. But the import market hadn't
hit yet. I saw my first Toyota in 1972 and it was a Celica GT. It was pretty
nice looking and had a sharp looking interior. Then the Datsun 240Z was
another sharp car outisde and inside. The gas crunch of 1973 pretty much
started the era of compact imports that got good mileage.

Today the Big 3 are chasing the imports in style. You can't blame UAW
for this. This is a total designing problem. They make ugly cars. Chrysler
said the new Dodge Challenger was gonna be affordable. I love this car.
It looks American. It's Big 3 of yesterday. But the Challenger has limited
production and after the Dealers tack on their HUGE supply and demand price
the car is $50,000+. That burns me up. Chevy will probably do the same with
the Camaro.

We can make nice cars. We just need to quit chasing the imports and have
our own appealing designs. Designs that stand out like the Challenger and
the new Camaro. They also need to have better names of the models. I
have never heard of such ugly model names like the ones in the last 20
years. When a car goes down the road today I have no idea what make
or country the car originates from let alone know what model it is. When a
pick-up goes down the road I know who makes it. I love my F-250 and
the boys in Louisville did a nice job buuilding it.

Now lets get rid of the term Litre. That means little to nothing when it comes
to engine size for me. I want Cubic Inch back!

Butch

The big 3 make a fair amount of cars that have good mileage, quality and have a fair price. As someone already said they need reductions across the board. Starting at the the 20 million dollar CEO down to the UAW employee costing the auto makers $71 an hour. Foreign auto makers spend $43 an hour and I believe they said the average American is around $28 an hour with benefits.

Our EPA rules cant help things here. I cant see how the Europeans can run clean diesel powered cars that get 50+ MPG but here we have states that dont even allow a diesel car to be sold.

You know I've had a brand new never used 4000 watt generator up for sale 300 for the last three weeks and I think I finally have a buyer? Three weeks

You know what he wants for? He has three salt water fish tanks at home. He's worried about a power outage.

watching CNN is just depressing
GM stock under $3

At the risk of sounding like I am back-peddling, I think I need to clear something up so nobody infers that I mean buying a non-domestic car is akin to treason...

I really have no problems with imported cars - or other goods - being sold and purchased here. Part of a healthy economic system is having open trade that allows consumers choice of how they spend their dollars. If you prefer to buy a Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, or whatever for some reason - style, value, etc - you should do what you feel is best. But make the decisions based on sound facts, not decades-old opinions or legends of inferior quality, poor reliability, shoddy workmanship, etc. Educate yourself and THEN decide.

Conversely, I think it should only be fair that we diehard Big-3 supporters actually shop and compare what is out there from the competition. Knowing what "the other side" has to offer will help keep you from becoming complacent with mediocre products. Relay your concerns on to the customer service channels so the producers get the point that they need to be competative.

I remember sitting in the driver's seat of a new Ford Fusion at the St. Louis autoshow a couple years ago when the car was introduced. An unknown gentlemen slipped into the passenger seat next to me and remarked that he was "checking to see if the quality was there...". And he concluded that it wasn't. Being an engineer, and a bit of a passive aggressive SOB I asked him if he could quantify/explain what he meant. He couldn't, but said "it" was just something you could "tell". THOSE are the kinds of opinions that detroit is facing...

I view blindly voting a straight party ticket in the same light...educate yourself THEN decide...

Now, on to diesels...

The diesel car thing has come up here before. There are two big reasons diesel is more accepted in Europe than in north america. First, diesel fuel is much cheaper than gasoline due to the very high taxes European governments imose on the fuel in effort to curb pollution and encourage conservation. I recall recently Fretscha remarked that gasoline was the equivalent of about $9/gallon in Germany with diesel being much less expensive. Second, environmental regs in the EU are structured to limit CO2 production and, therefore, fuel consumption. Since diesels offer on average about 30% greater efficiencies they produce less CO2 per kilometer, are therefore taxed less (there are "carbon taxes" in Europe) and are thus more popular. If I recall correctly, diesel engines power upwards of 60% of European autos.

In the US, our EPA is more concerned with low level Ozone pollution (Smog) and therefore regulates the production of Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) more strictly than the Europeans do. The geographical layout and climate of our landscape compared to theirs and our greater automotive congestion make smog a bigger deal here than on the Eurpean continent. Diesels generate more NOx because they have no throttling plate that would restrict the ingestion of air into the combustion chamber even at idle. In other words, at all engine speeds and operating conditions a diesel takes a full gulp of air on every intake stroke. Since air is about 78% Nitrogen there is an ample supply of N2 in the engine waiting to be oxidized into NOx during the compression heating cycle. gas engines run comparatively air-lean so don't encounter the same problems and have a "cleaner" (less soot) exhaust stream which is easier for a three way catalyst to reduce the NOx back to N2.

Exhaust gas recirculation in a diesel engine(and a gasoline engine for that matter) serves as a way of displacing some of that N2 that would be converted to NOx products. and since the exhaust gas consists of already burned materials, it cools the overall combustion process since there is less excess O2 available which further limits NOx production.

OK, brush off your high school chemistry skills for a second and recall that oxidation reactions must ALWAYS be accompanied by a reduction reaction...got it? here goes...

Tuning an engine to run cleanly w/o blowing many unburned fuel molecules into the exhaust is easy. So until recently, the three-way catalysts used in gasoline engines (dubbed "three-way" because they oxidize CO (carbon monoxide), oxidize unburned hydrocarbons (HC's), and reduce NOx) could not be used in diesel engines since there was too much NOx present that needed to be reduced compared to CO and HC's to oxidize. AND the sulfur in the fuel would posion the catalyst rendering it useless. Unburned soot also would plug up the catalyst reducing its effectiveness.

With the introduction of the "ULSD" Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuels the door has been opened to actually sticking a catalytic converter in the exhaust system. The chemistry is different from a gasoline cat-con, but the ideas are the same. In the newest "clean diesel" engines the soot is actually trapped in an exhaust filter and is later burned off (oxidized) when the exhaust system warms up (extra fuel is temporarilly injected into the engine to heat the exhaust up to the ignition temp of the soot. You truckers with exhaust gas temp guages will see this on your instruments as your trucks get equipped with soot traps). And in some cases, such as that adopted by Mercedes Benz, urea is injected into the exhaust upstream of the catalyst. the NOx is reduced to N2, the urea is oxidized to N2 and everybody is happy. These cars are 50 state legal, but their fuel economy suffers a little as a consequence of hauling around all the extra emission stuff. I'm not sure how VW tackles NOx in their new "clean" TDI since they use no Urea. I think the upcoming Honda diesels have an on-board magic chemistry set that MAKES urea from the fuel and air to serve as exhaust treatment reactants.

Chemistry class dismissed...

With all this said, the big reason diesels haven't taken off in the US was the fact that gas just was too cheap. And here we have taxes that keep diesel prices higher than they are (relative to gasoline) than in Europe. We can get into the discussion that diesel "ought to be cheaper than gas since it is the first thing out of the barrel" but that arguement doesn't consider that diesel and gasoline are competing products and are therefore tied together in pricing (you can only get so much stuff from a barrel of oil, if you make more diesel you make a lot less gas).

European governments steer public behavior rather aggressivly through taxation if you haven't noticed...

I can't say much in regard to styling except to say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The current retro push may remind us of better days, but to my generation (I'm 33) the cars from the 60's and 70's all looked pretty similar whereas I really pick up on the subtle variations between today's Toyotas, Nissans, Fords, Volvos, etc. I think there is some romance to reviving classics like the Mustang, but the appeal to the generations that did not grow up with those cars is probably a lot less than it is to more mature folks. Retro works in some cases, but I don't want to see any Grand Torino's or Diplomats in my garage.

That said, my last car purchase was a Mercury Monterey minivan. By CHOICE . So you can see what "style" means to me...

Hybrids have become the current fad in the auto world. They are wonderful contraptions, but they are a very complex, expensive, and complicated design that acheives economy that could easily be met with smaller vehicles. i had a 1997 Ford Escort that was reasonably roomy for two of us to travel in and would get 40 mpg on the highway. Cars grew, engines were souped up, and we added more luxuries. It is remarkable to me that cars are as inexpensive as they are considering what goes into them.

I'd hate to see a resurgence of Geo Metros and Chevettes on the road. We can get the same efficiencies today and keep the safety that we have. But weight/size/power are what kill fuel economy and those are the things that people are going to have to sacrifice to get there. Hybrids are nice, but are a costly alternative to responsible restraint. Improvements in engine control and fuel induction (think turbocharged direct fuel injection gasoline engines) are the near future.

My line of work deals with reducing the weight of structures through the use of composite materials. I think since weight reduction is the cheif bogey to increasing fuel economy we are due to see a huge increase in the employment of lighter, stronger materials in autos. El cheapo steel will be replaced with thinner high strength alloys. Aluminum will be more widely used and plastics will start to serve structural applications. Weight reduction is the most obvious way to innovate in modern designs. I think this will be a growth sector along with "clean" energy, recyclling, and other "green" topics. If our auto industry collapses the potential for the US to remain competative in these areas is reduced further.

Wow, this is way off topic from "the economy". Sorry to lead you all astray...
Steve

Thanks, Steve, for a well reasoned and thorough explanation of a very complex subject!

As to plastics sa structural role, I agree completely, and I think if we knew more about the space program we would probably be amazed at just how many structural applications plastics are already involved in.

I learned more in the past fifteen minutes reading this thread than I have in the past several months from other sources!

Duff

Just by reading these posts, I can see everyone is passionate about whats happening to Americas' Economy. If the pain hasn't hit you yet, it surely will. What's happening now is the culmenation of years of coruption, waste, and a attitude of "whats in it for me"? Bad business practices, poor workmanship, "I don't care" attitude have brought us to the brink.
I remember when Jap motorcycles were introduced to America. The fit, finish, and engineering were way ahead of american bikes. When I saw my first Jap car up close, I was blown away. Gauges, instead of "Idiot" lights, real fabrics in the interior, again, fit and finish to die for. Many American automakers were just trying to see how little quality they could put into their cars-and the public would still buy them. In many ways we have become lazy, complacent workers. Demanding more and more for our work and giving less and less in our work.
Ive seen it first hand-The Studebaker Corp. Workers would come to work, punch in, and climb the fence and go work another job while getting paid to work at Studebaker. Where is Studebaker now? I built the engine transmission assemblies for the "Avanti" automobile in South Bend. The car was literally hand made. But, as often happens, the company was purchased by a Realest Tycoon interested, not in building excellence, but making big time money. The short-cuts in manufacturing and lower levels of quality eventually were the demise a a truly ClaSSIC aUTOMOBILE.
wHEN WE AS AMERICANS are turned loose to go back to our winning ways-we will overcome. The Fat Cats in Washington, and Heading the Big 3 need to be thrown out and leaders put in that have ethics and morals.
Sorry for the Rant!-AL

Al, you make some very good points.

Before the election some friends of mine and I all came to the agreement that it really didn't matter if we voted for McCain, Obama, Joe the Plumber or Mickey Mouse!

Whoever was elected would still have to contend with a Congress that seems to have completely lost touch with reality. Take the bailout plan as just the most recent example. What moron would agree to give/loan/bequeath/bestow $750 billion of OUR money, mind you, on anybody without laying out the rules and oversights up front?

This business with AIG and its executive retreats is sickening, and the heads of the "big 3" coming to Washington in corporate jets to ask for money is equally disgusting.

Where I work is talking about layoffs for the first time in the school's history.

Don't get me started.......

Duff

Sorry if this is too far

I think the main reason diesels have been slow to take off in the U.S. is because the early American diesel cars were slow to take off. They have incredible slow lugging power, but the American CAR buying public wants something with take off. One of the most commonly repeated sayings I recall about diesel cars of the late '70-s/ early '80s was that they could push a line of cars up a hill but they couldn't pass one going downhill. The auto makers tried redesigning their products to overcome that but the stigma remains. In the earlier years it was also kind of rare to see a diesel pump at the local service station. They only got more common when more deisel trucks began showing up.

Should the big 3 be taking lumps for pushing trucks and suvs on us? NO. Since the end of WW II Americans have been attracted to bigger, more luxurious, faster cars. The government mandated polution and mileage controls that came about in response to the gas crunch of the seventies meant downsized cars that the public just simply does not like or want. These rules don't apply to trucks and the public began to embrace trucks as daily transportation. The big 3 wouldn't build them if they couldn't sell them. Up until about 1980 or so it was rare to see a full size pick up with all the options. Most trucks were bought for work. Now it is the other way around.

"Detroit" has built many economy models over the years and most have met with general dislike and even ridicule. How many Chevy Vegas/Ford Pintos/Dodge Omnis have you seen in the last year? As soon as other larger models that got close to the same mileage showed up these models quit selling.

We all know that we would be better off as a whole if everyone was driving safe, nimble vehicles that used very little fuel. But the stark reality is that Americans are spoiled. When given a choice between two vehicles that differ only in that one gets say thirty mpg and the other allows the driver to stretch his legs one more inch, yet gets only twenty mpg, the overwhelming majority will go for the vehicle with more room. Europe has made inroads into the American car market by building larger cars that get good mileage. The big 3 responded to the demand not by building larger cars that got good mileage but by building luxury trucks. They could get the mileage they needed from the trucks without the cost of meeting the EPA mandates that would have to be met by cars. These rules are set to change in the very near future. It will be interesting to see what solutions the big 3 have planned.

Oh yes! Toyota Manufacturing of America has been incredibly successful at building products at their Geogetown, Ky. plant for over twenty years without UAW present. And most, if not all, of the parts and materials are made in the U.S.A. by Americans.

How can this country send people to the moon, bring them home safely, live in outerspace, INVENT planes that go 3000 miles per hour, invent plastics stronger than steel, computers that have ever increasing speeds and memory,
HOW CAN THEY NOT INVENT A MORE EFFICIENT ENGINE . The big 3 has sit around with their heads stuck up their butts and let other countrys surpass us in auto tecnology for years nowThe US has quit leading in technology, we have become complacent,I think the american people are gradually wakeing up and paying more attention to what out leaders in washington are doing, for years we thought they was doing a great job, NOW we find out that they are worse leaders this country has ever had.
This may be an extreme way of speaking , but consider if the planes that hit the world trade centers , had hit the congress buildings. I am not so sure that could have been a blessing . With new people in office, this country MIGHT be headed in a different direction, instead of a down hill slope.. some of those people have 20-30=40 years of feeding off of your tax dollars, while aquiring power and more money. they have lost sight of what they are supposed to be doing. insider trading, coruption, sex scandals, and they get re-elected, COME ON... it's time to get those ^%^ out of office.
I say the next time one of those (&^^ is caught with his hand in the cookie jar, take every cookie he has and put him on the street, and i mean literally , take every last penny they have and will ever have,
I like the old saying,," You can tell when a politician is lying ", "His lips are moving"'.
Just take a look at the la-*test*-('") Senator from Alaska, Stephens, they should strip him of every penny he has, Why don't we send that man to prison, instead he will get off without any sanctions except for loseing his seat in the senate
As you can see by this post i have a very low regard for our elected officials. I think almost every one of them are crooks, only a few are honest. BUT they get sucked up into the corruption of washington..
And while i'm at it , i might say a word about "Ear Marks" no more ear marks, no more hidden dollars spent for special interests. make every bill that passes conress , just one bill. not a lot of them hidden with=in a major bill that has to be passed. in the la-*test*-('") Bail-Out , did you notice what was attached to the bail out bill. over a 500.000.00 for special interests.
better stop and take a blood pressure pill.

Well, it's on again and off again, as now I am once again amongst the unemployed. I really think at this point I will make it to the unemployment line, which is a total bummer. It's just too bad we can't file for our taxes now. That would make things alot easier. Even the christmas bonus would help. Oh wait, maybe there won't even be a bonus this year. A total bummer!! Burly

Real sorry to hear about the job john, i know this is hard to take especially at this time of the year,and you have little ones at home.
this really sucks when i see those &(&%^&%&% flying around in their million dollar jets...\
hope things work out for you, this was a sputter wasn't it, any chance of them calling you back?

You are dead on about the earmarks. If the bill can not stand alone on its face it should not be attached to other legislation in order for it to be passed. I am all for giving the president line-item veto power. That in itself would hopefully reduce some of the pork. The Florida state constitution only allows for bills that substantially cover a singular subject. This greatly increases transparency and again reduces pork.

My brother is an engineer for Honda. Most "foreign" makes are now manufactured here in the U.S. Here in Alabama alone we have plants producing Mercedes, BMW, Honda, and Hyundai. They seem to be doing pretty well so far. Honda dependability is legendary. You can buy a used Honda with 100,000 miles on it and be confident you can put another 100,000 miles on the car without any major problems. Sure keeps their resale value high!

Nope, Not me! All the kids we have now are grandkids! Don't you even go there!! All over and done with! Too damn old for that to happen!!! Kids are great!! I ain't having any more!! Just looking for the next horse as usaul!! Burly