Because american corporate business practices, with their low pay and limited fringes make it impossible for the average american to buy quality american product thereby cutting their own throats.

Yet, they don't seem to have a problem with the eventual outcome.

and dale, that translates to stupid americans buyig JUNK from over seas. good answer. an eye for an eye that will always be a good resloution. lets buy 3 POS engines at a lower price instead of one better built engine. i have no issues with buying a foriegn HONDA engine buy buying o knock off that has a proven tyrack record to plain ole suck just doesnt make much sense.

bamboo.... you may see your fair share of them come through the shop... but somewhere in the archives (of this board or maybe another since I can't seem to find it immediately) is a discussion where opinions were asked about these Honda knockoffs, and others who have these engines said they hadn't had problems. It's largely (note I say largely, not not solely) dependent on how you care for and operate your engine that determines how long it will last.

The other issue you raise about it being a POS JAP junk engine... well, first off... it's a Chinese copy... not a Japanese. Second... since when are we subject to the Correct Police here? The point of this thread is to take an old Wheel Horse tractor and make it live again. Are you saying you wouldn't take a heart transplant from a non-American? I know, far fetched... but essentially the same principle. Most of us do what we can with what we have and what we can get. I truly would love to sink $500 into rebuilding the original Tecumseh that goes on this tractor... but that's just not practical for me. It's not a statement of Americanism... it's merely a by-product of this world we are in and the financial state of things.

And for the record... the project is still on hold. Been way to busy to even look into it more.

I'm backing Jason on this one as well.

I certainly prefer to use original equipment on all my horses, and I think the K and Magnum series Kohler engines should be the benchmark for all others to follow.

BUT the "New" Kohlers, and the new Briggs engines are in my opinion, not one bit better than a chinese knock off. As a matter of fact, the newest Kohler engines have begun to incorporate PLASTIC gears internally, and I'm not talking govenors. I recently took great pleasure in taking my last Command series Kohler to the scrap heap, and I left feeling like I had cheated the scrap company.

I have a horizontal shaft knock off at home, and have never had the first problem with it in about 5 years. It is a GX Honda copy, and will use Genuine Honda replacement parts, if it ever becomes neccesary to do so. While I have heard some horror stories about knock off diesels, the gas models I have dealt with have been excellent.

On another note, I despise Tecumseh engines, which is exactly what Jason is replacing on his tractor. If I had the choice, for whatever reason, between another Techumseh- trudging through the nightmare that is getting one to work right, as opposed to a re-power with a knock off, I'm taking the knock off.

Also, no one here (including Jason) should be ashamed for making an attempt to keep a beloved WH working. I regularly use a spare engine to re-power a WH, as most of the time I find them without an engine. I usually try to find the correct one to add later, but sometimes they just aren't available anymore. If doing so is stupid to another collector, then I can handle that.



Kevin- Stupidly enjoying the grea-*test*-('") hobby on earth.

This thread is starting to have the potential to get out of hand, but I am impressed with the civility of the responses from Jason and Kevin so far...I think THAT points to whether they are or not more than does their choice to buy one of these imported engines.

Arguments for and against the merits of these engines are easy to make. But I think we need to maintain perspective on what people plan to do with the engines once they are installed. Are they the perfect candidate for a tractor that sees occasional use? Probably. Should we expect them to perform identically to the best engines out there under prolonged, hard use? Probably not.

But, in general, it seems that these "clones" do what they are supposed to do often enough to make "risking it" worthwhile for folks. Are there bad ones? Of course there are. But if you adjust your expectations to align with the bargain prices these bring you'll likely be a satisfied customer. Part of the cost desparity is quality, but other parts include lack of a realistic warranty and lack of a dealer network for this stuff...all of that contributes to the higher cost of a Kohler, Briggs, Honda, or Tecumseh.

Jingoism aside, I think you can make legitimate complaints about the "demise" of American society as a consequence of products like this. Or any import, for that matter, where a comparable domestic product is available. Profits are exported, which means a continuous outflow of US cash to foreign lands - even when the product is assembled here. That money, like oil money, rarely comes back except to buy more of our assets.

But, then again, we all probably shop at Wal-Mart and always look for the best deal. So, how is buying a less expensive, cloned engine different that passing by the WH dealer on the way to the farm store to pick up a belt?

The collapse of the industrial sector is a consequence of us buying our Hondas, Toyotas, Sonys, and other stuff. It is unavoidable in a global economy (the US no longer has the capability to completely isolate itself and still maintain our standard of living), but some day we will have to pay the piper. We need manufacturing jobs for the "middle" to maintain a decent lifestyle. Not everybody can work t McDonalds or Microsoft.

I respect bamboo's views, but think perhaps wording things a little more diplomatically (e.g. "JAP") might have made his points easier to swallow - for me at least. Clearly his experience with these things has been less than pleasant and I have no reason to doubt his impressions of this merchandise - he is probably a much more skilled mechanic than I will ever be. And I am glad to learn from his experience.

My only real ethical dilemma out purchasing one of these things comes from the fact that China has a history of not respecting patents, copyrights, and other intellectual property. Creating a duplicate of another maker's highly technical product and then flooding the market with them at cut rate prices (based on cheap labor, no development or resarch costs, little engineering, and a subsidized currency) makes MY purchasing one of these things a little difficult. But I don't judge what others are doing in this regard.

But, certainly Honda and Yanmar know these things are for sale here and haven't stopped their import yet so perhaps a royalty is being paid. I don't know.

I wish Jason the best of luck with this thing. I know he will not be the last to see how this works and I am glad he is willing to be a guinea pig for the rest of us.

Thanks for all the opinions already expressed and those yet to come!

Steve

ok i guess i should have said things differntly.

i will do my best this time around to be nicer, but im still going to be honest.
i feel strongly about saying most peple go to places like harbor freight to buy as i like to call them. " THROW AWAY" items, items you dont mind seeing go to the trash when they break, die or whatever. sorry but taht we feel.

with that said i would never buy nor do i think anyone has every really bought a wheel horse to just throw away!!! they are strong built, american made and have a great history.

i certainly would not ever buy a nice 1965 GTO and throw a 2.3 litre knock off honda engine in it. i would probably take my time fixing other things and when i had time and extra cash then have the correct engine installed.

so far i have heard that you drove extra miles back and forth, had to change battery location and belt changes. new mounting hardware. wiring im sure as well. and an engine that has no name!!, my opinion just mine, would have been easier to ask around for the correct engine....

as for experience with these engines. well i have plenty not from my own use mind you. as stuck up as it may sound i would NEVER BUY something like this. regardless of my actual financial status. this is a hobby.. look the word up

my experience in my shop is alot, these come in all the time... for the record you cannot and should not mix the parts with honda..NO THEY ARE NOT THE SAME., you were misinformed.. most the internal parts are not interchangelble. and i wont even go there to think you would buy an engine this cheap and even do any internal work..
we tell people to throw them away when they come in to the shop...
secondly they have been seen a million times with honda logos on them, strange the same company that makes these engines also sell honda decals...wow... wonder why.. thats legal. thats great..
lets take all this a step further because in honestly this is not about wheel horse..
would you allow your daughter/son in 16 years to drive in a car that has knock off brakes on it? how bout when your son is old enough to play football using a knock off brand football helmet.....i coukd go on all day, but hell whats the point.

i dont agree with buying junk, with no name, with no good repuattion, whether its for my tractor or its for a car ect... as far as where its made well lets just see how happy our kids are when they are in there 30's and 40's

ill stick with my vinatge american made engines...and be proud of them.
next time your at the harbor frieght pick upi some OIL SPILL so when the POS blows you can clean it up, or ruin the environment...

that was my mean me.. sorry if any of that offended people. just my thoughts

OK, if this in any way offends you, I'm talking to the "mean you".

I can't speak for Jason, but only myself. I would imagine the remarks about "stupid" and "stupid people" most definately were taken the wrong way earlier. They certainly caught my attention. To post another response afterward for any member to see that clearly "talks down to" someone as your's has, does not place you on some moral, patriotic, or even technical high ground. It's kinda like farting in church- Sure, someone will think it's funny, but most folks are smart enough to see a person who just never grew up.

Just when your reply seemed vaguely apologetic...

And no, none of us would knowingly place our children, nor anyone else's in danger. Again, you act as if you're talking to idiots. Doing so is arrogant presumption on your part. No one on this site would say such a thing to another member, out of respect. It's a way of life here, and it works. It's a courtesy... look the word up.

I have the grea-*test*-('") respect for the members here at Redsquare, and they are some of the nicest people I've ever had the pleasure of talking with, and occasionally meet in person. This is particularly true of those of us who have been here from the beginning. You will never find a better website for our hobby, and that is one of the reasons we all love it so much. We have a vast amount of knowledge here, and excellent administrators and moderators who take care of our site. One of our grea-*test*-('") attributes is that each and every considerate and constructive opinion or idea, is welcome here. There are all kinds of customizations and fabrications on this site, and we all like to see them. Just as Steve said earlier, we are all curious to see how Jason's re-power and subsequent -*test*-('")ing turns out. It is, after all, his tractor to do with as he pleases. Besides, I don't think WH ever built a single engine of their own design. They made tractors, and used the best engine they could find and afford to power them with. Why is it so different for the new owners of these machines to do the same thing? I wonder how many thousands of WH tractors went to a scrap yard because the engine was worn out. And, if gasoline was gone tomorrow, are you planning to scrap your tractors? Personally, I think anyone who tries to enjoy his machine by any means neccesary is doing a good thing, and it is quite a tribute to the spirit of WH products and it's history.

I would lastly like you to know that I also respect (and completely understand) your feelings about these knock-off engines. You obviously have had an unpleasant opportunity to work on them. I can't blame you for feeling a bit ticked about having done so. Personally, I don't like Eaton transmissions and Tecumseh engines. They were poorly and cheaply designed, and many of these machines we like so much are plagued with problems as such. But, I certainly won't be telling someone they are stupid for using them. It would be nice if you could voice your thoughts with a bit more consideration of another's ideas. You may, after all, be speaking with someone who just might know more than you think.

Just my thoughts,

Kevin

Steve, Kevin....bambooheels, thank you for your comments. This thread is closed before it goes any farther from the original purpose.